Serge Krief

I have some huge respect for Serge Krief. I was lucky enough to see him live after Zingaro's show. It's a great privilege that he kindly accepted to answer my questions. His musicality and generosity make him a precious man. What's more, he is one of the most considered Gypsy swing teacher in Paris. He's a genuine impassioned musician who reached his level through hard work and numerous hours spent on guitar... Serge Krief is a musician who remains quite discrete and who would give away anything to music. Here are a few examples of what he can do, in Gypsy swing and in be-bop:

- His MySpace page
- Blues Mineur
- Opening for Al Jarreau
- Django Legacy - Rose Room

In which conditions have you started playing guitar ? What has flamenco represented to you at the beginning ?

I started guitar pretty early, when I was around 12-13, I can't really remember. But something strange happened. I went to see a friend of mine and his parents saw me playing guitar, at 12-13, they came to me and said: "The way you're playing folk music is nice but you should listen to this" and they handed me a record of Django Reinhardt. I took the record and I said to myself I would never play this stuff, it was too old for me, it was weird music, I was not interested, so I forgot about it. I started playing flamenco, blues, a lot of blues until I was 18-19, until the day when my elder brother Patrick who had taken lessons in Django's style told me he had just learned a new tune called "Nuages". So he asked me if I wanted to listen to it. I told him that I'd like to. After he played the tune, I thought I had already heard it somewhere. So I went to dig in my archives and I found the old record the man had given to me that is "Le Disque d'Or de Django" (Django's Golden Record), I listened to Nuages and that was it. I listened to Django and I said to myself that it was the thing I wanted to do. I was around 19-20 years old, something like this.

Otherwise, at 16-17, I listened to Paco de Lucìa, it was the first time that I listened to this kind of music. In Sarcelles (a city in the outskirts of Paris), everybody was playing the Rolling Stones, that kind of music. And I listened to Paco de Lucìa with McLaughlin, and I said to myself that I would like to play this stuff (Stones) so I gave it a try. I played this kind of music, but it was mostly for fun, first because I was at school, and then, because I didn't want to do anything else. I was really interested in these kinds of music, either the blues with Johnny Winter - when I started, I came across Johnny Winter thanks to my brother Patrick - or Paco de Lucìa with McLaughlin, and that was it, I did not want to hear about anyone else. And then, bad luck, or should I rather say, luckily, my brother took lessons with a guy who played Django's music and who taught him Nuages and voilà, that was it! I heard this and finish!

Can you describe your meeting with Matelo Ferré ? And the way you learned with him ?

Matelo, it's simple : his son Boulou Ferré saw me playing outdoor, off the top of my head it was in a place called "La Grande Motte", and he said to me : "You know Serge, I am playing in a restaurant; you should come here and see me playing". And sometimes after his sets, he would invite me to play a song, just with him and his brother Elios who plays very very well - Elios plays so wonderfully! And I was playing with him and one day he said to me : "You have to go and meet my daddy". I said "What ? Matelo Ferré ?" he replied : "You have to see my father to take a few lessons with him". I didn't want to, I was ashamed. Matelo is the reference and that was quite frightening for me. Then Boulou took the phone and said : "I will call for you because you seem to be shy" and he said : "Hi daddy, here is a young bloke who wants to take courses with you". It started that way. Then I met Matelo, and it was really really really the big change in my life. With him I understood and felt what the music of Django was, and the music in general, and that was my real interest. When Matelo was playing a standard like "Sweet Georgia Brown" for example, from the beginning to the end, there was a true melody. When I was simply passing over the standard arpeggios I said "Matelo, this is not possible ! When I play Sweet Georgia Brown, there is a E7, I play a E7 arpeggio; there is an A7, I play an A7 arpeggio, etc... but it doesn't sound like you !". He was playing the E7, the A7 not with arpeggio licks, but with a real melody ! At the time, I didn't really know how he could do that. I was blowing a fuse ! And that was the moment when I started to think about it. I said to myself : "That's not possible, I must play something else, in a different way", because Matelo - even if he had the experience and was for me one of the greatest guitarists I have ever met in my life - could do it. He said to me : "It will come boy, it will come". Thanks to him I understood I need to play with my mind AND my heart. Working arpeggios is great and all, we must learn everything, but Matelo had a way of playing, he was really playing music (melody). And that day, I was almost 23, he guided me on the melodic way of playing. That's all thanks to Matelo !

And how long did you take lessons with him ?

I think for about 6 years. He had not only become my master, but sometimes I would call him at 10-11.00 pm, his wife would say : "What’s the matter?", "I have to talk to Matelo" and I would say "I don’t understand, I don’t get it". He would say "It’ll come. Come see me tomorrow." And I would go the next day. He was an extraordinary man, and he was more good-natured than anyone else I’ve ever met, very kind, and extremely talented : a genius! He really had class, Matelo! He really made you understand what you had to understand. He was a real gentleman, the great man.

You define yourself as a laborer. What’s the difference between a laborer and a man of talent?

I am not talented. I worked at it. I’m not talented but on the other hand I worked a lot and to be gifted, it’s great, it’s fantastic. I have a lot of students who are gifted and when I see them I tell myself that if I had been like that when I was young, I would have been happy. But since I wasn’t gifted, I worked, and with hard work you can make up for a lot. I really worked, worked, worked. I’m not kidding you : 15 hours, 17 hours a day for about 10 years. After that I calmed down. If I put in 5 hours a day, I’m happy, but it’s hard, if I could do more, I would.

Did you mind being a quote laborer on quote?

No, it’s stimulating, that’s what’s stimulating about it. When you see people who are very gifted and you know that you’re not necessarily that gifted, it’s a psychological thing, you want to show that you’re just as good. So you work. And I can assure you that working, talent or no talent, you eventually get the same result. Someone who’s got talent and works, he’ll get to the top, good for him, I congratulate him. Someone who doesn’t have talent and who works, you congratulate him, because whatever happens, if you believe in what you’re doing, with time, you’ll achieve in 10 years what somebody gifted would have achieved in 5 years. Whatever happens, he’ll get there.

So is it only a matter of time? There is also the matter of method. When you worked on your guitar 10 hours a day, how did you organize yourself ?

Generally speaking, you know, thanks to Django Reinhardt, there are always licks to work on. Everybody plays them, and if you can’t, you already have a problem. Since everybody plays them, you absolutely have to play them to begin to find your own style, to begin to advance. You know, you have to have technique to play slowly. When you have a lot of technique, you can play slowly well. When you’ve mastered a minimum of technique, you’re already satisfied with yourself. The point is to be satisfied with yourself, not to have people say : "You play well, you’re a master", and when you go home, you know the truth, you know that you sweated it, you know that it was tough. On the other hand, when you’re feeling good about yourself, that’s when even a compliment becomes an accolade. When you feel good about yourself. When you feel bad about yourself, people can congratulate you all you want, tell you "thank you, thank you", etc., when you go home, you tell yourself "I suffered, I didn’t managed to place that lick, it was really hard." When you reach a good technical level, that’s when, when you grow a little older, you start to play a little more melodically. When you’re young, you’re full of fire. And it’s true that there’s a lot of people who are really happy just to hear you play fast. Well, the fact is that when I was young, I played very fast. I didn’t have a problem with technique and it’s true that it’s annoying because when you have a lot of technique, sometimes, you don’t know when to stop. Instead, when you have a lot of technique and you know when to stop, it’s amazing, then you deserve to be congratulated.

And about your work, because you have to fill up 10-15 hours a day, what did it consisted in exactly? Did you make transcriptions of Django?

I transcribed Django when I was 28, 29-30. After that I stopped with Django, I played another kind of music. During these two years, I transcribed Django. I did about a hundred transcriptions of choruses.

What did this particular work of retranscribing brings to you?

It brought me money, because I sold it to my students (laughs). My students asked me for it. In a half hour, I would replicate a chorus of Django for them. Now, I don’t do that anymore. But it’s true that if it had been up to me, I would never have done it.

Where does such a motivation to work so many hours a day originates from ? Was it a sacrifice to you ?

Can I tell you something ? I have around ten students who work as much as I do, maybe more than I used to do when I was young. I ask them that same question. Working is a climax. I can see it through my students, because I walked the same track. You take your guitar and you discover things, and you're crazy to discover things every day. You repeat things over and over, a billion times. You don't care about what the others think because you believe you hold the truth. I said "you believe", because you don't hold the truth in reality. So I have asked some of my students how many hours they practice every day, and it's from dawn to twilight. You can't take that away from them, if you do, they can't live any more. If you took away guitar practice from me, I'd be dead. I used to love only that. I would wake up in the morning, take the guitar, then a coffee, and then take back the guitar. And in the evening, I would play in a concert, when I was young, I used to play 5-6 times a week. I played every night. And don't forget that a live performance is worth one month of work at home. That was very interesting. I was lucky enough to practice my instrument and to be able to work in the evening. So I was damned happy.

For a few years, you have practiced be-bop a lot...

Yes I did practice be-bop. Don't forget that I am not a Gypsy. So, even when I was yound, I liked be-bop. I am not a Manouche, so Gypsy swing is not a music I have heard every day. The first music I ever heard was not from Django reinhardt, it was Joe Pass, Dizzy Gillespie. I remember when my brother used to bring back records at home. It's only later that I heard Django. I'm not a Gypsy so it was not my philosophy. I was not given the opportunity to be born in a family where they listened to Django. My father was a paintor so he didn't give a damn, he used to paint all day long. My mother didn't care either, she was a cleaning lady. I never listened to Django. It's just because of - or thanks to - friends who told me that I "should listen to that" when I was a kid, 12-13 years old at a party. I didn't know what it was. They gave me a record from Django and even then I said: "It's not very good, it's music for elderly people." That's what I first said. "This music is oldish." At the time, there used to be dumb programs on TV, Mike Brandt, Sheila, disco, all that shit, so I didn't care about Django Reinhardt. It's rather the second or third time that I listened to it that I realized that there was really something special about it. But at first, I didn't care. Besides, that kind of jazz is a bit odd, it's really special, Django Reinhardt's music is not like be-bop.

What do you find in be-bop that you cannot find in Django's music ?

To me, in Django's music, there's everything. In the States, they say that in Django, there are "real notes". Real notes. In be-bop, you can juggle with notes. In Django's style, you have clichés, you have notes, you almost have to play them. In be-bop, there are notes you must play, you have more expressions, you can put many notes, even notes that are not really in the underlying chord if you wish to. Whereas in Django's style... To me, Django was Mozart. That guy, he used to play notes, I don't know how to say that, it was pure melody. He was a genuine music story teller. Whereas in be-bop, apart from Wes Montgomery who innovated in a special style, there are many guitarists. In Django's style, there's only one : that's Django. To me, he was a Mozart, he was not the standard man. He was a man who embodied music. That's something you only understand later. I think nobody went as far as him. In 2008, people still play his choruses from 1937, and they're crazy about it. Think of Biréli Lagrène, when he plays some Django Reinhardt, people are crazy about it. This music, Stochelo, Romane, all these guys, this music is extraordinary. Whereas in be-bop, you can play around. With Django, someone plays a minor D, if you don't play a minor D, you're dead!

How did you learn be-bop ? For Django's style, you took lessons with Matelo Ferré...

When you play some Django Reinhardt, when you go deeper into it, when you study Django, you go back to years 51-53 and then you say: « Let's see what comes next. » You listen to Wes Montgomery, you listen to Charlie Parker, and since you did a good job learning Django's style - look, there are many guys, more and more, who play some Django who also can play be-bop very well - you can learn by ear. I transcribed some Wes Montgomery, Charlie Parker, and then I practiced. You see some ii-V-I shapes and then later you start to create things. And when you start inventing, when you create a phrase, it first sounds mediocre. Compared to what the others do, you have the impression that it's shit. And that's why you have to have faith. If you don't have faith in yourself, you cannot practice a style. These days, I try to play some Django Reinhardt, I love playing some Django, I only play that, we have fun with the students, people call me to play some Django, but I have not the same faith as I used to have when I was 24-25 years old. It's quite incredible, it's odd.

When you say you no longer have faith, does it mean that the Django page is turned ? That you live more on your memories ?

Not at all ! It just means I haven't got the same rage. That's what I call faith. It means I want to play a phrase from Django but I no longer have the will to go any further. Naturally, this is personal. There are so many people who play good, if you knew... I listen to them on the radio, I turn crazy, it's huge. Romane, Biréli, Stochelo, the little Yorgui... There's another one who can play very well, Chriss Campion. Do you know him ?

Yes, he's one of your students, isn't he ?

He's someone I gave lessons to. There's going to be buzz about him. This kind of guys have faith. And in many music styles, when you have faith, you can break many mountains, when you haven't, the mountains, you can't break them. It does not mean that you are not happy though. If you don't have faith in this, it means you have it in something else. Faith is really important. Believing in what you do is 90% of a human being's power.

Speaking about your students, you're certainly the most known Gypsy swing teacher in Paris whereabouts. You have about 60 students. What are the values you're trying to convey ?

Truth. I don't beat about the bush, I give them many things. You have to give. If you don't know how to give, you chould not be a teacher. Don't forget that when you have the power, you're a bit higher, and when you give that power, you realize that the guy in front of you can do what you do, it feels odd. Therefore you have less power. Actually, this is the true power. When you give your students what you know. When you see the student managing to do something interesting, then you give hima hug and thank him. I love to give to students, because when they play good things, it makes me a happy man.

Is that what motivates you in teaching?

That's it; I like them to play well. Don’t forget that Django’s style belongs to gypsies. It’s theirs. It’s their life. I try to teach the few things I know, which is a minimum compared to the immense knowledge of the gypsies. They are born in it, I am not. I am not a Manouche. I will never claim that I play like a gypsy. Gypsies have their own sensitivity. There's nothing you can do about it, that's the way it is! I teach the only few things I know.

What is your teaching method? Is it orally or visually oriented?

The course lasts 30-45 mn (usually 30 mn), and then we have a 30 mn jam. And after 5 or 10 lessons, the guys really begin to have good ear. They start hearing notes, they have to work. My policy is the following: half an hour where I give them what is needed, half an hour where we play, laugh and really have fun! When we play together, my students just go crazy!

Regarding the specific points that are technic and sound, how do you work on the right hand for example?

It’s easy. There is no other solution: when a student has a bad right hand, I tell him what he needs to do. And when he has a good right hand, I don’t say anything, only "go on like this, your hand is good." That’s all.

And what about the left hand, for sound and vibrato?

Left hand is not really related to the sound, that’s more the right one.

We often say that you have to grasp hard with the left hand for a sound as shaped as possible. But what for vibratos and ornamentations?

Let’s say that between the right and left hands you need to have what is called synchronization. When you manage to get a good synchronization between the right and left hand, I think you can do something very interesting. But the students are so much in a hurry at the beginning, they want to go so fast from the beginning because it’s normal, that’s Django Reinhardt’s style, they love to speed. With all these new references, all the kids that play Django, Jimmy Rosenberg, they play pretty fast. The students like to resemble these players. I guide them, as I can, with humility, but most of all with discipline, so that they can try to reach a good level. But it really is a question of good synchronization between the right and left hand. It really is a hard job. When they arrive, I instantaneously see what is wrong. When it is wrong, I tell them, when it’s good, I don’t say a thing. If it is good, it’s ok.

Do you have any advice to face the moments of discouragement we all go through one day when learning to play the guitar? Even more when we identify with big names of the style...

I am someone serious. When I see a student who wants to be treated as a star, I tell him he has to practice, that he has some work to do first and that "later you can be a star." When they come to my house, it’s incredible but everything is possible. When we work with the students, at the beginning they come here thinking it is not possible, that this style is too hard, and "I just want to have fun" and when they go back home after lessons and lessons, they think it really is possible, that they can play well, they can do it. Even I always questioned myself because of this. When they go back, they think they can do it. This is the pedagogy I have, simple but good. After the 10th lesson, the student really thinks he can do it, and I am the happiest man on earth, because that is my goal. It is a real pleasure. Ok, when they arrive, they don’t know what to do, there is a lot of work. But I never said they would become like Biréli Lagrène! But for me, the goal is that they have fun, that they take a guitar and manage to play little arpeggios where they thought they could not do it.

As you have a lot of students, can you detect the ones that have potential skills? What is talent for you?

Of course, and there are plenty of them. The talent is when a student really impresses me. When I feel the student has something to say, that is talent for me. I have several students with talent, and I also have others for whom talent will come a bit later. But for some of them, when I listen to them, I go "Waouh! That’s great!" Sometimes they manage to do everything I give them! Incredible! For me, talent is someone who thinks about what he’s doing, the one who plays differently from the others, but also who respects the fact that in Django’s style, they are some clichés that must be present, like in Bird’s style, there also are some phrases that must be there. And I do have students that have things to say. They play a different way, and I really see they are great. I don’t mean I take care of them more than the others, because I always take care of everybody. So when they say things different from others, and that they really mean them. When I ask them something, and they say "No Serge, let me try this, what do you think?". I listen and it is wonderful!

When you talk about gypsies that are born with Django’s music, and start learning guitar at the age of 4-5 years, like Biréli, you say that when they are grown-ups, they fluently speak this music.

Almost 90% - I was about to say 100% - when they start at 4-5 years old, it’s like it is their mother tongue. Like you, you speak very good french, you are born with this language. They grow up with the language of music. This is why, for me and I hope a lot of people, the gypsies really represent the leader of this music, because they are born with it. That other people play great phrases, that is great. I met a lot of gypsies, it has always been wonderful. So easy in they musical expression, so easy in the communication as a person, and a learning, because I always learned and even now, when I go to see them, I always learn even at my age, I listen to them. They play at home, it is their music, you can’t do nothing, it’s like that. It is like if an American comes at your place and claims he can speak better French than you. How do you want hi to speak better french, because you are born in France. It is their music, they are born with it, it really is theirs.

As far as students who want to play music as professionals are concerned, what recommendations would you give them to manage their stress before the shows ? Django’s music is very demanding technically speaking. Before playing on stage, you should have spent a lot of time on your guitar, it’s not like in pop music. So when the stress comes up and freezes your hands, what do you recommend ?

There are many students who want to become professionals indeed. I recommend them to go busking. It’s my first approach. Playing outside so that when they get on stage, they won’t have the jitters. Don’t forget that when you play outside, it is worth a month of homework. When you go busking, you play in front of people, the same way as on stage when people look at you. And between us, a little glass of whisky can help (laughs). Generally speaking, when you want to do this job, you know that you’ll have to show yourself. Then whatever happens, don’t forget that each human being wants to be the first, even in his mom’s tummy. It’s like that, there's nothing you can do about it, it’s nature. Nature is like that. You always like to be in the circle. Take the case of an eagle with two children. The strongest will kill the smallest to become the best and eat more, life’s like that. Human being, either in sport, music or even job in general, is like that when it comes to his will of success.

But don’t you believe that there is also some kind of success in the way, not to compare yourself to the others, but merely to play what you hear in you mind, without trying any further ?

As long as you you play what you hear, you’re already very good at music. It’s awesome. To play what you hear, it’s minimum of 10 years of practice. After at least 10 years, you can begin to play what you hear. When I was young, around 23, Boulou Ferré asked me for how long I have been playing Django’s music. I told him "for 3 years" but I have been playing guitar for 10 years. When you play Django’s style, you get into jazz. Boulou told me : "Serge, you need 10 years" and I was stumped because I thought that 3 years were enough to succeed. Unless your name is Biréli Lagrène. Biréli is quite special, not a guy like the others, this man is amazing, he juggles with music, I love it. He’s one of my favourite guitar players. When Boulou told me for the 10 years, I said to myself "Still 6 or 7 years, I won’t make it!". Cause you always think that what you're playing is good, but no man, you still have to wait. At least, I did wait. In order to be able to express what I want. I didn’t tell you I was great. What I mean actually is that achieving to express what you want is better than anything else, it’s really outstanding when you achieve to have fun with your guitar... Anyway, for a very gifted guy, 3 years are enough. A very talented guy is so happy because he improves so fast... There is a guy I like a lot, it’s Moreno. I dig him. Once, I got into the bar, he has quite drunk. He played a chorus on Nuages, I feeled like it was Django, I promise. It was one of those rare moments... Usually, Moreno likes to speed up, to fool around, but that night, he was awesome. We spent such a wonderful night. He picked up the guitar, he played Nuages and I saw Django ! Some people tell he plays too fast, ok then first of all, "do it", and then when he really wants to, Moreno is a unique guy, he seems to be Django Reinhardt ! You know, life’s like that.

How do you conciliate your very rich musical life with a family life, your wife and two kids ?

It’s not so difficult, my circle needs to understand, that’s all. It may be difficult if the circle doesn’t understand. My circle is composed of my wife and my kids, and they understand. Sometimes, they come bothering me "Dad, I’d like to do that", then I please them but 90% of the time, I don’t please them. I’d rather get my guitar and have a little fun. I have fun you know, I pick the guitar and I have a great time. Everyday I find something new, a little nothing that makes me smile. When I was younger, little things didn’t interest me. Now it makes me laugh, music is funny you know !

How did you met your forever partner, Richard Chiche ? What does he stand for to you, musically or not ?

Richard is my best friend. I met him when he was 16. I was just 18 or 19. He asked me one day : "Serge, I would like to play the guitar." Then, just for fun, I showed him three chords. I got him to play Minor Swing, and man, I didn’t understand, I was stomping my feet when he played the rhythm part, it had the swing. Then I told him : "You can play with me if it's fine with you." He said yes. And from that moment, he’s been my best friend. We still play together but we don’t see each other as often these days because he does a lot of things. But he is really a character. When he plays a Django rhythm, it makes me move. This man is outstanding. Next week, I will spend an evening with him. He’s unique when he picks the guitar, even if he hasn’t worked, you’re gonna move, you can’t help it.

Nevertheless, I work with a woman, she’s my girlfriend and her name is Caroline Senoble. Perhaps have you seen her at the Tuileries. She’s amazing, she can play Django’s choruses, Nuages, Minor swing, unbelievable ! And as a soloist, she’s outstanding. But really you know ! It’s simple, each time I play with her, I am astonished. A woman who plays like a man. We have already recorded together, even made a movie soundtrack. When I get a show somewhere, I always try to do it with her, because I get on well with her better than with anyone else, and moreover, she plays damn good. Before you called me, we'd jammed together 3 hours long. She astonishes me, I want you to write it down, she astonishes me ! (laughs)

Anyway, I like all guitar players. There is this famous sentence : "You do what you can". If you play badly tonight, we won’t fight for that, tomorrow you’ll play better. Stop criticizing, we really do what we can. Guitar is difficult. I shake hands to all the guitarists on the planet. We do what we can. It’s my policy. It’s really what I think. Gifted people or non gifted people, we shake their hands. Nevertheless, the one who thinks he’s a Hollywood star, he still can go and eat a fava beans soup !

He will learn in the future because when you got that attitude, sooner or later, you receive swipes and you learn humbleness...

In Django’s style, there are not so many people like that. It’s pretty rare, really, there are only good ones. I am pretty proud of having played and still playing this Django’s style. It’s really an amazing style.

You have played with most of the great musicians. Are there common points between them with respect to their way of approaching music ?

Yes, there is a common point. From Biréli to Benson, through Pat Martino, Frank Gambale, all of them are really humble. They embody humbleness. If you have the opportunity to meet them, you’ll see, you’ll get a humbleness lesson, kind of swipe in the face. Really those guys are so humble that it frightens you. Knowing their level, they touch the sky, and when you see the way they speak to you, they are so modest that you wonder if the sky hasn’t come into the house. Frank Gambale, I’ve met him once, such a humbleness ! He was so modest that I didn’t even know what to say. This is being a great one. As he has so many things to say, he tries to pass them on to you, in his own way, that is for him, with humbleness.

Among the musicians you play with, are there some ones that impress you more than others ?

The one that really impresses me is Biréli Lagrène. This guy man, he’s really got class ! The one that most impresses me is George Benson. So I have played with him, and when he played, I thought I was in 1960. And when I have played with Biréli, I thought I was in 1937 (laughs). But don’t forget that I learned a lot, with Biréli, with Raphael Faÿs, who is a really great musician. Also got a incredible humbleness. As for me, my education was to play with them, and especially to listen to them. That’s the way to progress, by listening to them.

In what ways was - and still is - Django so unique ?

Just listen to any of Django’s tunes, nobody in the world has given such a magnitude to the melody. He is the one that can make you cry, Django. For me, the one that approaches the closest to Django is Biréli Lagrène. For me and for a lot of people I think. But when you talk to me about Django, it’s incredible. I don’t know what to say you know. Django Reinhardt is music ! You just have to listen and let you be influenced. If there was no Django, it would be tough for us. I can’t find my words. You want to take lessons, you listen to Django, you listen to the master.

Translation: Favino881, Kindablue, Rollerpunk, Sonic Niglo, Yann, from Manoucheries and Rosa. Thanks guys!